Sharon, Why Didn’t You Flee?

10050CieloDrive-August91969-SharonTate 1
A post really meant for the “What If” Department Store of Life [another store, no doubt, Charlie would have had Mary and Sandy skulk into, to buy stuff on a stolen credit card while the rest of the principal Family members sliced, diced and julienned their way into the criminal history books].
Now, I’m sure they had more detailed inside information than we do even today, as to why Sharon didn’t at least attempt an escape from that Living Room that night, and maybe, hopefully, for them, there never was any need for this particular questioning torment.
I really DO hope that’s the case and that I’m wrong even in pondering this question.
So, maybe to allay just the outsider thoughts in me, I will play Sherlock for a while and attempt to analyse why it was that we see no evidence of Sharon attempting to escape as Gibby and Voytek had.
The Tate house had FOUR exits, as seen on this map…10050CieloDrive-August91969-SharonTate 2
  • The Main or Front Porch exit to the East, the one Voytek used to flee;
  • The Servants or Kitchen exit to the NNW, the one Mrs Chapman used to enter and exit that house, that day, fleeing in complete hysterics;
  • The Master Bedroom/French Doors-to-Pool exit, on the South side, the one Gibby stumbled through in abject pain, with Broken-Buck knife-wielding Katie hot in pursuit;
  • And the lesser known Living Room exit, noted here by a LIME GREEN CIRCLE, on the West side of the house, that faced the hillside surrounding the back side of 10050 Cielo Drive.
We know Sharon, like Gibby and Jay, had a noose around her neck, and although Jay was gunned down too fast to even contemplate a get-a-way, Gibby managed to break free of her confines and head for the nearest exit, which in her mind, was the French Doors in the Master Bedroom, strange as though it may seem to Us because I believe she may have been closer to the Front door in terms of footage but I do think an out-of-control-Bayonet-wielding Tex, a WWF wrestling match between Voytek and Sadie on the floor and those two blue steamer trunks lay in her way on that exit, so the due-South escape route was to her the only semi-“safe” next best thing. Somehow or for some as yet publicly unknown reason, Gibby like Sharon, mysteriously forgot about or chose not to use the Living Room Exit.
One wonders if there was a valid reason no one used this exit. Was this exit at one point destroyed, the blueprints of the house not accurate by the time the Tate-Polanski's resided there? Was there furniture up against this door that made its use impossible? Or in the scuffle, confusion and shock, was that exit just plain forgotten about, the inhabitants just not accustomed to using this exit on an everyday basis?
Regardless, Gibby broke free and at least had options where it seems Sharon did not. Sadly though, Gibby only managed to get as far as the Queen Anne chair to the entrance of the bedroom hallway before Katie slashed at her, yelling at Tex to help her in her attack, enabling him to get in one very good, very deep and very deadly stab into her lower abdomen, that began the profuse internal bleeding, that had Gibby clutching desperately at her stomach as she stumbled towards the Master Bedroom , ripping through those French doors that led her to her final resting place under that Lodge Pole pine.
So, why, if Gibby could break free, couldn’t Sharon?
Was the rope, by the time it reached Gibby’s neck, just too short to properly tie enough times around her neck? Had Tex been lax in the tautness of Gibby’s noose compared to that of Sharon’s? Did the Speed Tex was on affect his ability to tie both women in the same manner somehow?
Or, all things considered even, did Sharon go into such a deep shock from what she had seen and heard that her brain had her basically paralyzed with fear?
All of us react differently to the same severely stressful situation – the Fight or Flight Syndrome as it’s known. Some of us will also become precision decision makers in times of crisis; whereas others, in the same situation, will freeze with fear, almost to the point of becoming catatonic. And being pregnant, having one’s focus not on yourself but on your unborn child, would that create a kind of third behavioural instinct where the normal choice of Flight in Sharon was replaced with a need to Fight for the life of her baby through negotiation with these intruders because physically she knew running would get her dead?
Voytek, in my opinion, basically did what was pretty much, by then, his instinct. Surviving the horrors of Nazi Germany in Poland, I’m sure the need to immediately react to the dangers of Life was engrained in the man decades earlier. The only question I have ever had in that regard is why Voytek did not try and free the others, why did he instead choose to try and escape on his own instead of taking the women with him? That, by the way, is NOT an indictment on the man, for God knows what exactly he experienced mentally and bodily, as we well know his wound numbers were in the over-kill number. It may have been that in order to survive at all, in order to help anyone there in any real way, his mind decided that to flee and find help on his own was the only recourse, that to stay in that room one minute longer in an attempt to free Gibby and Sharon would surely end up in death, for everyone.
No one, of course, can know for sure and I see Voytek only as a victim who tried to do his best. 
Nevertheless, it does sadden my heart that neither he nor Jay were able to become a tag team to down these kids, to at least subdue Tex, for if they had managed to overpower “The Devil”, the Girls’ impetus to “kill for Charlie” would have fallen like a house of cards in my learned opinion and they would have easily chickened out, dropping their knives as fast as you can squeal the word “PIG” and running back to the car like the “scaredy-cats” they were without a manly maniac to lead them. All the residents inside the Main House at 10050 Cielo Drive then would have surely survived.
Jay obviously underestimated Tex. But then again, what is the right move when a armed man enters your house, high as a kite on Speed, wielding a bayonet and Buntline, and you see the love of your life, heavy with child, being thrown stomach-first onto the floor? Maybe it wasn’t so much that Jay underestimated Tex but that Jay paid no real mind to Tex in his rush to protect Sharon. As I have mentioned in a previous piece on the movements of Jay [“Wouldas, Couldas, Shouldas…The Blow-By-Blow Movements of Jay at Tate…”], in that house, on that night, my heart lies heavy in the knowledge that in that Master Bedroom Jay did not choose to a) over-power Sadie when she first confronted the pair with her flimsy Buck knife #110; nor b) push Sharon and himself out those French doors instead of assuming this was a friendly prank and proceed as ordered to the Living Room and to their deaths.
He could have taken Sadie down easily, in my opinion, high on Speed or not. Slightly built, with an utterly unfocused mind and rife with fear, Jay’s marshal arts experience, just being a larger build, and not stoned out of his mind like the Sexy Sadie, it would have been done and Sharon and Jay would have been gone before that dumb broad ever knew what was what.
That singular, decisive move, well before meeting up with Tex in the Living Room, could have saved both their lives.
Monday night quarterbacking…on murder…*sigh*…I know. Like that helps anyone now, right? But it’s difficult not to want to re-hash, to desperately find a solution, a good outcome, if you ever have spent even a moment so wishing this blood-bath had never occurred.
Gibby, well, it’s just amazing to me she had the fortitude to react at all. Maybe her time working in Watts/West L.A., etc. helped her to reason and react to what she saw as an unwinnable situation if she stayed put and that to flee at all costs was seen by her as the only recourse. I’m no Coroner but I believe it was that lower abdomen stab, wound#8, done by Tex’s bayonet near the Queen Anne chair, that caused her to initially bleed internally, and fatally, making certain failure in her attempt to escape. By the time she ran to the front lawn, and with her heart undoubtedly pumping viciously, she would have lost an incredible amount of blood and with it the strength to continue down the slope to the neighbours below, dizziness, momentary blacking-out and excruciating pain over-taking her, allowing Katie, then eventually Tex, to catch up with her and finish the Gibby “Project” once and for all.
I can see the ends for both Jay – shot, kicked and stabbed well before any thought of tactical offence could enter that poor man’s head – and Voytek - just too stoned to be much help to anyone and too beaten about the head to run fast and with any purpose to escape. And poor Gibby – just too petite and stabbed too deep, right from the start, to have any real chance to successfully flee. Steve Parent – known not to a soul in that Main House, dead as dead can be, well before this Manson Massacre ever got to full speed. But I cannot complete the scene on Sharon, the last to be attacked, with minutes totally alone at one point in that Living Room and then with only the ever-so-slight-and-ever-so-stoned Sadie, and seemingly, according to that killer-chick, not an aggressive move was made during this entire time by this soon-to-be-a-Mother and very healthy starlet. She had no booze nor drugs in her system, yet we do know she hadn’t been feeling up to snuff that day, most likely because of the heat and the late-month pregnancy exhaustion. But she obviously had the fortitude to attend dinner down in the valley earlier in the evening and seemed by the witnesses at the el Coyote to be alert and physically well right up to the time of departure. Sadie states that Sharon was sitting up in bed talking with Jay just before they were encountered by her so there is no indication that Sharon was not well enough to act if action was needed.
By what we know of Sharon, her personality was not that of a wall-flower, and coming from an Army family, that makes perfect sense. “Army brats” are rarely a weak bunch, emotionally or physically, so the question of why Sharon reacted not one iota to everything that was going on around her, including witnessing deadly attacks on her friends, leaves such a gaping hole as per our understanding of her train of thought in the last moments of her life. We do know she tried to negotiate with Tex (once he returned to the Living Room, having just finished off Voytek and Gibby), to keep her alive, as their hostage, at least and until she gave birth to Paul Richard. Was there something in her that said these killers could be made to see a compromise concerning her and her baby? Had Sadie said something to Sharon, privately, that was never revealed by that raven-haired vixen, to make Sharon think such a thing? Had Sadie ranted on about how valued babies were at the Ranch and in The Family, had she given Sharon hope that she, because she was with child, could very well be kept alive? Had Sadie lied to Sharon, saying the “real” reason they were there was to take possession of Sharon’s baby for The Family?
Basically, I just cannot buy that shock alone and that loosely tied noose were what caused Sharon not to move a muscle.
OR…unlike Gibby, maybe Sharon’s noose wasn’t loose at all? We see in the Autopsy photos of Sharon that the rope seemed very tightly wrapped around her neck but that condition could have been caused by the body bloating in the heat prior to discovery. Or as mentioned above, maybe Tex got it right with Jay and Sharon and just plain ran out of rope to tie Gibby securely. In that scenario, I guess we all have to conclude that Sharon had no option; yet, it’s in that possibility that starts anew the shivers in me. I, We, want Sharon to have had a chance, even if, like the others, her chance failed.
To have to sit on that couch, for God knows how many minutes (and minutes in situations like this go on for YEARS) with that smelly and STD-foot-pus-oozing Sadie (it was because of this oozing foot pus that Sadie chose to go without shoes because to wear them caused her such pain…poor, poor diseased dolly), knowing full well what would be your end, judging by what you have just witnessed as the ends of your now dead friends, must have been complete Hell on Earth. And to this day, we are all sadly left clueless, as the killers never accurately filled in the details of those final minutes of Sharon’s life.  No Sense definitely Made NO Sense this time, as to why, really, she had to die. It was already known to Tex that the goal of $600 would not be met by the residents of 10050, and yes, he was ordered by Charlie to kill every person along Cielo Drive that night until he came up with six big ones, but Sharon, unlike the others, had not even tried to fight back nor to escape, she was pregnant, slight, not a combatant and easily over-powered. There should have been no reason to kill her and every reason to at least take her hostage until the baby was born. Tex “claimed” they did not realize she was pregnant before they killed her, which I don’t buy, given that Sadie readily admits to knowing, and not caring, whether Sharon or her baby lived or died. I get the “leave no witnesses” excuse but given that Sharon could have been killed after the baby was born makes this a moot point to me. But I will admit that being high, being bloody and being oh, so exhausted from hacking and slashing might have put a damper on normal Family choices.
IF Charlie had been there that night, would Sharon have been killed? Charlie had a weakness for children, would he have felt a twinge of guilt in killing a foetus so close to delivery? Would Sharon and Paul Richard have had a chance if the Little Dude had been there to run the show instead of Tex?
For what it’s worth – my opinion – I think so. [Sadly, this admission will get the ATWA-cheering Charliemites a-quiver with joy, citing another “reason” why Charlie is nothing if not angelic.]
Yet we do have evidence to suggest that Charlie had no balls in destroying kids and the fact that he would have been far less high on drugs (and certainly not on Speed, for he detested the stuff), suggests to me Sharon may have had a chance with The Soul. If you ever want to see what I see, in terms of the level of danger Tex Watson possessed then and still does, one can singularly cite this final scene at Cielo Drive, where to Tex, life of any kind, save for his own, always meant nothing. It is readily known that all the fatal wounds on those two nights of killing were dealt solely and directly by Tex and his trusty bayonet, not by the swipes and superficial slashes, nor the after-death giggly stabs the Girls gave out. When you do the body count in TLB, you need only to look to Charles Denton “Tex” Watson. We can’t even be sure Manson dealt any kind of direct fatal blow on Shorty Shea and we know his shooting Lotsapoppa was only meant as a way to escape for Manson and not meant as premeditated murder. [Noooo, Charliemites, that does NOT get Your Man in the free and clear for NONE of these murders would have ever occurred but for the conspiratorial and creative vengeance of one Charles Milles Manson.]
I just can’t help but wonder…Sharon…
Another Living Room exit, minutes utterly alone, no wounds at all until the end. I just always wanted Sharon to have tried, even if trying still meant failure and I’m sure, embarrassing as it is to admit, I want that more for myself and my peace of mind than even for her. I want her not to have felt what the Medical Coroner described as “Multiple stab wounds of chest and back penetrating heart, lungs and liver causing massive hemorrhage.”  I want Paul Richard to have kids of his own, a house on the hill with cars parked out in the searing Los Angeles sunshine, he himself getting on in years, well appreciating the life he was given by Roman and his Mom.
If wishes were horses, the well-kept Bentley is still Sharon’s chariot in London, shopping at Harrods's today, she was, buying baby clothes for her soon-to-be-born first great grandchild.
Sharon, why didn’t you flee?
The Dead, as it turns out, don’t talk to me.


CarolMR said…
Excellent post - thought-provoking. I always assumed that Sharon was too frozen scared to move, coupled with the fact that she was over 8 months pregnant. I wonder more why Jay didn't take Susan Atkins as they were led out of Sharon's bedroom. She only had a knife and Jay was proficient in karate. Maybe he thought, as maybe I would have, that if they just did what they were told, everything would be fine.
B.J. Thompson said…
Hi, Carol, so nice to hear from you again and I'm so pleased you enjoyed the post...:)

Honestly, these questions have been plaguing me for years, the post has been on the back-burner just as long, but it was something that I KNEW, once I attempted, would bring me back to altering nothing about the exercise in futility but someone it needed to be spent anyways...:(

It's like when I see the countless replays of JFK's limo on Houston, the birdie inside my gut is screaming, "DON'T TURN ON ELM! GET OUT OF THE CAR! RUN AND HIDE!"...sigh...and of course, no one does, the film replays as usual...just the little girl inside me that wants so desperately to make traumatic events "all better"...:)

I really do think there were many factors at play in the house, in those minutes after the invasion, all prior life experiences that made everyone act as they did, to create the perfect storm for mass murder. And, possibly the one major weakness was merely just Benedict Canyon, circa 1969...the times very innocent, the locale considered very protected and safe from the Hippie ravages of Sunset Blvd just below....What we did and thought back then, was most definitely NOT what we think and do now. Today, if you replayed that entire invasion, the principals, in my opinion, would act extremely differently, and most likely some or all would survive.

But yes, it's the need in me, maybe all of us who care, to go around that house in those minutes just prior the slaughter, run from room to room and figure out if motivations and therefore actions could have changed...

In the light of day though, after the dust settles on this post, the bodies are where they are, the damage is still so evident and I am standing in the middle of the Living Room still wondering all the same questions...:(

A difficult post for me to hash out but I think one that needed to be put to print, possibly to get us all thinking outside of the assumed box that was this fatalistic event at 10050...

So glad to hear from you, Carol, MsBurb...:)
CarolMR said…
Glad to hear from you, too, MsBurb! Love how you get into the details of your posts. The line that struck me the most was that if that home invastion had happened today the principals would have acted differently. I totally agree. In fact, it reminds me of 9/11. I think that if, God forbid, terrorists take over a plane, passengers would act differently. There were certainly brave passengers on 9/11 on those planes, but I think today all passengers would fight back with everything they've got.
B.J. Thompson said…
Yep, Carol, and from where I'm sitting, that new way to act and think is a sad result as well as a happy one...

Sure, your American Presidents are carried from pillar to post now in cars that have to be named The Beast, people are ready to go all spider-monkey on the asses of airplane terrorists, and yes, tonight if it happened again, Jay would probably have shoved Sharon out the French Doors and it would be Tex that was killed on the Living Room floor...

The problem with those now "happier" endings is what price are we paying in society that the cost is our innocence for our very survival?

To me, there is NO difference between the 9/11 Islamic freaks and the Manson Family, basically because both committed terrorism on a global scale. We never looked at Hippies in our small towns the same way again, we always wondered if we treated them poorly would they go all Sharon Tate on our butts too, some dark summer's night?

It's no wonder that because The Manson Family was the first continent-wide act of domestic terrorism that those perps are dying where they sit, not given the parole they "think" they deserve. Would we give parole to convicted el Queda members? Hardly. Both groups deserve the Death Penalty for, among other gruesome acts, stealing our very naivete out from under us all.

People ask me all the time why I think there should be no reprieve for the Manson Family killers...there is your answer.

Sure, today, Sharon, Gibby, Jay and Voytek would be alive (still think Steve would have bought the farm because his attack was so without warning), but houses in Benedict are now gated and people who are old enough to remember, I think, hold their collective breath, waiting for August 8th, 9th and 10th to be over, every year...:(

Manson doesn't surf but he sure as hell rode our asses into fear and doubt...:(
CarolMR said…
I'm hoping some of the Manson gang doesn't get out, but I don't know...Bruce Davis will know tomorrow if he is set free or not. I know he wasn't at Cielo or Waverly, that we know of, but he is a Manson Family member. His release may pave the way for Leslie's and Patricia's.
B.J. Thompson said…
So many tangential mysterious deaths/murders swirl around Bruce Davis that I highly doubt he will ever be the first to be let out. I think people in the Parole power structure know he has never confessed to acts he should have and is just hiding under the Jesus cloak like Sadie did.

IF and that's a very big IF, Pat gets out it would be under VERY controlled circumstances, I think, simply because her anti-social personality disorder is still as strong and rabid as it ever was.

And as for Leslie, I highly doubt she will ever get out mainly because of her and Bruce's pleas on being "political prisoners" start marching down THAT road with the Board of Paroles and whether you deserve it or not, your name now is mud.

Leslie, people forget, was a very uncooperative Family member with the police and her more than self-righteous/narcissistic personality shines through easy with those who evaluate her. She uses her Little Girl Lost ploy as a possible Get Out Of Jail Free Card but Board members are not that naive.

My guess, for what's it's worth is this: 1) None of the Manson killers do anything but die behind bars; or 2) Pat is the first one let out under extreme controls. She is the only one of the living perps who has expressed anything close to sincere remorse and for that she may be given a chance.

Bobby still denies allot of what went on and won't own up to much in which he played a direct part so he'll stay where is he, I have no doubt.

The most crucial night for me, as it was in 1978, was when Sadie was up for her last Parole bid. I feared they might take pity on her and give her what she wanted and I was thrilled they didn't even bat an eye at the possibility. 2009 and 1978 were turning points as to judge the temperature for future releases, in my opinion.
CarolMR said…
Wow, MsBurb, you were right! Everyone thought Davis out be paroled and they were wrong. I thought he would be, too, but I'm not unhappy that Gov. Brown denied him parole. For murder, life without parole seems fair.
B.J. Thompson said…
Hey, Carol...well, yeah, I never even questioned this outcome, lost not one wink of sleep because of it.

Beyond the fact that he aided and abetted in Gary's death and was said to take a very direct role in Shorty's, was implicated in other mysterious deaths, then did as the others did and thumbed his nose at a fearful society after-the-fact, it doesn't bode well for his inner psyche and its true motivation.

Heck, he even went on the Manson '73 film and BOASTED about how Right The Family was and how darned wrong the rest of us were...what they ALL did was a) conspire to kill; b)conspire to wreak havoc in the name of their own warped ideals; and 3) conspire to create our continent's first act of domestic terrorism.

And post 9/11, despite the economic pitfalls of California, we KNOW who needs to STAY behind bars and who doesn't. We let out the Manson Family killers in any way NOT in a coffin and we are sending a message that terrorism is only evil if perpetrated by foreigners, not by our own people, on our own society.

Leslie and Bruce can yell "political prisoners!" all they want and the reasonable Parole Members won't care one bit. They put themselves in that category, we didn't, and now, guess what old Brucey-Bruce, you get to reap the rewards! ;)

Thank God there are still people of reason in that State that, despite all the celeb hype, can recognize a wolf in sheep's clothing, ATWA-friendly or not! :P

Thanks, Carol, for what you have said, but I honestly think there was never any other option...:)

We're getting closer to seeing all of them come out the same way Sadie did and boy, if that ends up being the case, will I ever be a happy camper...:)

B.J. Thompson said…
Oh, and one other thing...

As I've said many-a-time before, just because their sentence was commuted to Life With (simply because there was no Life Without in '72) doesn't mean they deserved Parole, it just meant they were given the right to apply for said.

Everyone knows they were all so very deserving of the Death Penalty, that just because of a quirk of legal fate, they didn't get their appointment with the Green Room, does NOT mean the Justice System changed its mind and thought them worthy. People tend to forget that. The Justice System never said they were worthy of anything but Death.

And although their sentences couldn't be re-upped to Death after that Supreme Court decision was over-turned doesn't mean that the Powers The Be don't recognize how accurate such a sentence was for these killers.

They were NOT your garden variety murderers, Carol (and IF they had been I would totally agree that they should have been released decades ago). Nope, they created damage far reaching beyond their victims and their victims' surviving family members...we know it, they know it, The Board of Parole knows it.
CarolMR said…
MsBurb, I honestly thought because Jerry Brown grew up in the 60s and is fairly liberal, he would have granted Davis parole. But maybe he honestly thought that would have been the wrong thing to do or he was afraid of what the public opinion would be of his decision.
B.J. Thompson said…
I see what you're saying, Carol, and yes, with any other garden-variety murderer, with this amount of time served and the "appearance" of remorse and rehabilitation (and I say appearance because Bruce, like Sadie and Tex are all about the Image of change without actually changing), he/she would most likely be released on Parole by now.

These were NOT garden variety murderers nor were their acts and post crimes behaviour the norm either. They wanted to create a big splash, and they did, and that big splash is costing them large.

I am one who does NOT believe that it would have just taken Charlie to makes these killers kill, they were anti-social sociopaths in their own right and even if they were never to commit an act of murder on their own again, they most definitely still have the power to alter other innocent minds, and not for the better.

No one believes that ANY of these killers feel true remorse nor are they rehabilitated in any way. The decades of playing the Parole "game" have made them pros in projecting said but anyone worth their weight in gold in assessing their behaviour can see right through this act.

They are where they should be for the protection of society and for payment for the damage they cost society.

I can only hope the Board keeps seeing it as that and I honestly think they will, if all else remains the same.

Just remember: You cannot apply normal Parole expectations to these specific killers, Carol. They raised the bar on crime and they are being hung by it. It's just sad it is taking so long to do so, considering they should have all met their Green Room fate decades ago...
Anonymous said…
After seeing Abigail and Voyteks desperate attempt to save themselves it must have crossed Sharons mind to do something

Maybe she thought her best chance was that surely they won't murder a defenceless 8 months pregnant woman-meet Tex Watson

I just wish they had taken up Sharons offer of killing her after her son was born because i,m certain her inner and outer beauty would have melted Mansons heart and kept her alive

Of course we cant even imagine the horror,confusion and physical pain those poor young people went through that night all those years ago
B.J. Thompson said…
Hi Anon,

I think there were several factors at play with Sharon, in those minutes leading up to her death.

1) The Heat. She had felt sick earlier because of the heat, exhausted and I'm sure being so pregnant in an LA heat wave is pure torture for anyone. She was NOT on her game that night, when even pregnant on a better weather night, she might have been;

2) Shock. From what is known, Sharon seemed to have gone into instant shock the moment Jay was shot, which is only a few minutes after the entire thing got rolling. From there on, people react differently under shock - the fight or flight response. Being pregnant did NOT help. You are NOT physically under control, you are off your centre of gravity. You are heavier and cannot react quickly. She may also have been someone who just shuts down in shock. Some people do, they cannot physically react. Gibby was the opposite of Sharon, she had the fight response, get away, defend oneself from the attackers, TRY and do something to stop the onslaught. Sharon fled mentally, she shut down.

I honestly feel that "offer" of "take me until the baby is born" was most likely just a mumbled idea to Sadie as the two waited for Tex and Katie to get back from killing on the lawn. Sadie would then have voiced that "idea" to Tex, maybe, and I am POSITIVE there was NO thought in that debate. It would have been an instant "NO!" and that would have be it. Tex had his orders, he acted as a robot, NO brains to alter course. Period;

3) Charlie. It would have never happened, Anon. Charlie was, if anything, a realist. he would have immediately known that ANYONE living in THAT house would be a "somebody" and "somebodies" are always rescued by the Law. She was too hot a property and he would have had to kill her, no matter where they had taken her. He would have gone ballistic on Tex for even dragging her to him in the first place. No, sadly, a non-starter there. IF she had been a beautiful "nobody", then maybe, but anyone from up Benedict, as I know personally, never is just a nobody.

The die was cast, Anon, from the instant Jay allowed Sharon to leave the Master Bedroom and enter the Living Room. The ONLY escape possibility was those French Doors in the Bedroom and I rather blame Steve McQueen (indirectly) for Jay not taking Sadie seriously. Those two played pranks on one another ad nauseum and I truly think Jay thought this was another "McQueen prank", so he thought nothing of going out to the Living Room with Sharon to "play it out" everyone's demise.

Bottom Line: Life just unfolds and I think we have VERY LITTLE control, if any, on how it does. That's the take here. It was just going to happen and no one could alter that. Even wittle ol' MsBurb in this "what if" post I wrote...doesn't stop us from wishing or wondering though, does it? It didn't me...:)

Thanks so much for your Comment, Anon...:)

Tony said…
The only chance of Sharon and Abigails life being saved was the decision that Frykowski would make,and fatally he made the wrong one, yes he was brave and strong but those pluses should have been focused on one thing, after seeing Jay killed without any mercy he should have realised that this was a kill or be killed situation, therefore an all out shouting and screaming surprise attack on Watsons throat and a do or die Bid to kill the Devil at all costs with any weapon he could get his hands on.
Easier said than done but they would have had a chance for life but Frykowskis bid to get out of the house sealed their fate.
No one will ever know what it was like in that hell house that night so it is just a theory of mine on a possible way of them surviving
B.J. Thompson said…
Hi, Tony, nice to meet you...:)

Sorry for the delay in response...but better late than never? :D

I can appreciate where you're coming from with your scenario, and with anyone else, in another situation, Voyek choosing to stand and fight may have worked, yes, but in this case, quite doubtful.

That night Voytek had done MDA, as it had been found in his system at autopsy. Jay had been drinking wine at the house before dinner so Voytek may have been imbibing as well. Voytek was sleeping on the couch when the break-in occurred and between not being awake and under the influence, he was at a definite disadvantage where Tex Watson and Sadie were concerned, the pair of them doing constant hits of Speed all the week before and a major one the night of...they were mentally prepped as if killing robots.

Voytek was in a tussle with Sadie and got sliced on the shin, that injury quite hobbled the man, I think, and while Tex was stabbing Abby in the lower abdomen with the bayonet near the Queen Anne chair, Voytek knew there were too many knives, too many hopped-up kids attacking and he also knew that if he could run down the hillside, four homes were right at the very bottom, he could have got help immediately.

Sadly, he didn't make it, Tex and his lethal bayonet caught up to the hobbled man and it was over on the grass out front, mere feet from heading down that hill.

MDA, sleepiness, shock and pain were what stopped Voytek from standing his ground that night, I think he knew there were just too many attackers for one man to thwart off. If Jay had still been alive that living room would have been a different set up but when all who are left is a highly pregnant woman in shock and your girlfriend who has now been fatally stabbed even before she ran out of the house herself, and no viable weapon in sight, what else could he do? He had to try and seek help.

I look to Jay when he and Sharon were in the Master bedroom...IF he had realized that Sadie's wielding of that small buck knife was not a prank and that it was an attack, he could have easily over-powered her and got Sharon out through the French doors to safety, maybe to Bill and the Guest House at the very least, locked the doors and ran down the hill for help once he realized the phone-line was dead. But Jay knew their Hollywood friends pulled pranks, Steve McQueen one of the biggest pranksters and this looked like a joke to Jay, I think, and out the pair went to the living room and to their fate.

A perfect storm of lethal mishaps, enough to enable three hopped-up young adults to annihilate four lives that night.

Thank you, Tony, for your input though.

I fear in '69, such a home invasion reality wasn't even psychologically possible. Today, yes, unfortunately, we are all desensitized to such violence but then, people had very little protection, figuratively or physically...a very sad and an almost impossible combination to survive.
Tony said…
Thanks MsBurb for taking the time to comment on my survival theory,i think about the situation the victims faced in that room and it must have been terrible for them to be faced by Watson intent on killing them at all cost.
Can i ask you just one question?
Do you think Krenwinkel and especially Van Houten should be given a date for release in the near future considering the genuine guilt and remorse they have shown (Krenwinkel especially) it's been over 40 years in prison for them both. As for Watson, he was the Devil doing his business and now he hides behind God, he should rot in hell in my opinion
B.J. Thompson said…
Hi again Tony...:)

Your one question is actually double-barreled (no pun really intended ;) ), because the psychological state of both Pat and Leslie are very different but still very dangerous.

Pat has been diagnosed with Anti-Social Personality Disorder with Rage tendencies (the same as Manson) and although 99% of the time she is a model prisoner, she can become enraged at the drop of a hat by someone who she thinks has "wronged" her.

To her credit, she knows she has rage issues and she also knows she has a very difficult time controlling them. She is, by far, the most "remorseful" in a certain sense of the word BUT when asked at one of her parole hearings who was the ultimate victim, she spit out without hesitation - her.

I do believe that of any of the killers she's as close as any of them will get to a release date BUT because ALL of them received the Death Penalty with such punishment overturned by a mere legal technicality, there is every chance ALL will remain in prison until their deaths, which as far as I see it after decades of study in this gang, is the correct decision.

IF Pat was released, she would have to be monitored/medicated for the rest of her life, for her rage tendencies are as vibrant as they've always been...and without her parents alive to help control her, she's rather a quiet time-bomb in my humble opinion.

Leslie, look Tony, do NOT BE FOOLED by this wolf wrapped up in sheep's wool, Leslie is and shall always be one of the great manipulative killers of Manson. She is completely narcissistic and although she may never kill again, there is nothing to say that she couldn't and wouldn't create more societal harm.

She acts and speaks as she does for the prime reason to be freed and let's NOT forget that she was the ONLY Manson killer who a) VOLUNTEERED for the job AFTER she knew what it entailed; and b) stated very matter-of-factually that the more she stabbed Rosemary LaBianca, the more she LIKED IT.

Leslie is just a baseline greedy person who will say and do anything to further her cause, to benefit only her, and as with the rest, she received the Death Penalty.

Tony, she is where she ought to be, if not for the risk of re-offending but for the need for sheer societal punishment. She ferociously stabbed, was gleeful in the act and has spent the last 40+ doing everything she could to manufacture this angelic personality so she could simply be freed. There is not one remorseful bone in Leslie's body, Tony, IT IS ALL AN ACT.

I hope this response helps and yes, I know, most outsiders see Leslie and the pretty angel...think again, she is anything but.

If all the Manson killers die in prison, then all the victims from (roughly) July 27 - August 27, 1969 will, in fact, at least, get justice.

Cordially, MsBurb
Tony said…
Thanks once again MsBurb for having the time and patience to comment on my post, having first of all been in favour of Krenwinkel and Van Houten being given a date for release in the future, despite the pain and suffering they caused to victims and family on those 2 nights i have changed my mind on this having read your previous comments, simply put would anyone sleep easy knowing that one of these women were living next door? i didn't realise that they still had issues with their state of mind, been obsessed with this case for a couple of years now but still got a lot to learn.
Been told Restless lives is worth reading so that's my next bit of knowledge of what went on
No need to reply to this post MsBurb you've been a big help already
B.J. Thompson said…
Hi, Tony...:)

I know you said no need to reply but I'll just give you some advice if you're trying to get to the truth of this vast case...take with a HUGE grain of salt ALL Tell-All books on this case, for they end up being very agenda-ridden and highly subjective, often taking statements out of context and/or not handling the events in a thorough way.

If you want to learn the truth, go to court transcripts and witness statements, police reports and sometimes old newspaper articles, in other words go to the source.

The ONLY book which has been published since the murders, that has ever been truthful or as close to the truth as one can get is Vincent Bugliosi's "Helter Skelter", the rest have been just buckets of hearsay, rumour and innuendo.

Good luck with your venture, Tony, it's an event in time which can grab you and not let go...;)

Cordially, MsBurb
Teresa said…
MsBurb, I stumbled across your blog for the first time last night and I have to say I'm thankful I did. I just finished Helter Skelter again and decided I wanted to know more. Although I was born nine years after these horrific murders I have been interested in this case ever since I was a teenager. Like you I have often found myself playing out the what ifs of those nights. And like you I always come to the conclusion that shock would not permit Sharon to move, add pregnancy. Like you I often wonder why Jay never acted first. You clarified at least some of that reason for me by explaining the practical jokes. I never knew that. I am not fooled by Tex and Van Houten. I see them clearly for the sociopathic, spoiled rotten, disgusting murderers they are. As for Krenwinkle, when I heard her say that she was the ultimate victim it made me sick. These people, and I use the word people very loosely when referring to them, were given the penalty of death for a reason. And although they escaped the gas chamber, they should not be permitted to escape death while incarcerated. They may have the right by law to apply for parole but their sentence is set in my opinion. Death behind bars. Just last week I decided to start checking out the court transcripts etc because I absolutely refuse to read any of the books written by these murderers. To me it would be a great injustice to the victims and their families. Again, I'm glad I stumbled across your blog last night. Thank you. I will definitely keep reading and replying :)
B.J. Thompson said…
Hi, Teresa, great to talk with you...:)

I'm glad you like reading TLB2. I try to come at the crimes from a purely forensic/evidence-driven point of view as there are enough Tell-All books and blogs out there with scads of agenda-driven flotsam - rumour, innuendo, and just plain lies.

I am also thrilled you see through the crap these killers have pulled over the years and you're absolutely right about their deaths being in prison. Just because their convictions were overturned by a legal technicality doesn't, in my mind, have them escaping their punishment, alive or dead, they were "X'd" from the civilized world alright, and not by Charlie, by the decent folks on the good side of their bars.

I hope you continue to read the articles I have posted, there are many to choose from, from all topics on this case. I hope to add more articles in the Fall but I've been on a book-writing hiatus of sorts...:)

Hope to hear from you again, Teresa, and All The Best

Anonymous said…
Problem with using the back living room door is that if they use that one theyre semi trapped or at least allowing time for Tex, Susan, Katie or Linda to lay in wait for them at either end of the house, not to mention it was probably pretty dark back there at midnight and hard to see anything, as for Sharon my theory has always been either 1) when Tex and Katie were outside tending to Abigail and Voytek, Susan possibly became distracted and may have veered outside for a very short time allowing Sharon time to help Jay up and get to the front porch in an attempt to get to Jays Porsche and were met at the porch by any combo of the killers and both stabbed on the porch thus explaining both Sharon and Jays blood types found on the front porch and then brought back in the living room and nooses re attached and then finally finished off there or 2) like the first police theory in the homicide report, Tex and company are expected and welcomed to the front door by Jay, Voytek and Sharon, shortly thereafter an argument ensues probably over drugs and money and Tex is escorted to the front door by Voytek, Jay and Sharon where Tex then pulls the .22, Abigail is roused from her semi sleep in the bedroom by the argument and is attacked at the entrance to the hallway leading to the master bedroom as type B blood was found in that spot, she bolts for the doors out to the pool Voytek upon hearing her screams starts running in her direction where hes shot from behind by Tex, then Jay and Sharon are either attacked on the porch before the butchering of Voytek and Gibby starts on the lawn or afterwards when Tex gets back to them
B.J. Thompson said…
Hi Anon,

That living room door was very close to back kitchen door which was only a few feet away from the garage and escape.

Jay died almost immediately - see autopsy report. Sharon wasn't dragging him anywhere.

Sharon and Jay never left the living room. The blood type mix up was from first responders trapsing in and out. Sharon had a fatal wound to the heart, she died where she fell - see autopsy report.

Entry for perps was through dining room screen window. Voytek was asleep on the couch, Abby was reading a novel in left hall bed, Jay & Sharon talking on bed in master bedroom.

Blood found on French doors of master bedroom was Katie's, put there when she gave chase after Abby who fled out that way towards pool.
H.K. said…
Hi MsBurb,
I enjoy your posts, as I have wondered many of the same things. What are your thoughts regarding this: what if Winifred Chapman had, as offered to, spent the night? And, what if Debra and Patti were there, staying over, in the Loft? I wonder if they would have remained silent during the attack? I do not recall, through all of my research, that any of the murderers looked up in the Loft?...Thanks for your thoughts~
B.J. Thompson said…
Hi, H.K., thank you for your comment and your kind words...

In my opinion, Winifred would have been killed. She would have been found like the others.

Debra was to go over that night, not Patti, and most likely Debra would have slept with Sharon in the Master bedroom, so she would have been talking with Jay and Sharon, and therefore would have died.

As far as Tex looking in the loft, I don't believe he did, and although Sadie spent the longest time in the living room with Sharon, I don't believe she looked up there either.

Had Debra been up there, she was way too young to not have made noise when even the gang first arrived in the living room and Tex boot-kicked Voytek, and for sure would have screamed when Jay was shot or Sharon was temporarily hung, so she would have been found out and killed as well.

The ONLY positive result, in my opinion, was if Jay had man-handled Sadie right in the Master Bedroom and got Sharon out the French doors before Tex was alerted to their existence, got her down the ravine to those neighbouring houses.

Sadie and Tex were so high on Speed, if they knew you were there, you were dead, not by Sadie's buck knife but by Tex's bayonet. There was such little time/room for escape.
H.K. said…
Thanks so much for your prompt reply, MsBurbs. I am so glad to have come across your Blog. I have studied this case for 30 years now, and your thoughts/comments have crossed my own mind for many, many times, for many years now. I love your Novellas; the yearly "Dinner Party" brought tears to my eyes, as did the story about Sharon being taken to Barker. If only....
I agree with your reply to my first comments. Another Blog had mentioned the possibility of Mrs. Chapman's presence that night, if she had been killed, would that have possibly extinguished the race war theory. Being that she was more light-skinned, the Killers, as you say, would have most likely killed her anyway. I believe Bill G. thought that Gibby was Mrs. C. at first glance? However---just thinking of this, this very moment--wasn't there a bedroom on the far North side of Cielo, where she would have slept, and could have escaped? But now I realize that was probably the Nursery, so maybe the Loft. And I agree, now that you mention it, Debra would have most likely slept with Sharon. I agree with you 200% that if Jay had thought "fast on his feet", in the Master bedroom; things would have turned out differently; at least for him and Sharon. I also completely agree with your theories regarding Sharon not escaping. It leaves a mystery to us all, as to what happened those final moment of her life. Why don't we have the details? Were the Killers too appalled at their own actions to even utter a word to anyone about it?...To me, it seems that Tex (in his Bio) does reveal the final "seconds", but what about the time Sadie and Sharon were alone?....As far as Sharon escaping; yes, there just seemed to be nowhere for her to go, even without the restriction of the noose. As I recalled, there was virtually no backyard (being, the side of the hill), the parking pad, the pool area, and the front door being her only options.
And poor Steven...literally seconds made the difference for his fate. So sad.
B.J. Thompson said…
Hi again, H.K.,

Charlie didn't send Tex to Cielo that night for any race war theory. He was enraged that two of his favourite girls and Bobby were in jail, and he needed $600 quick to bail them out, or so he thought. Sending them to kill was just his rage spilling out. It was money he needed, pure & simple.

People tend to credit far too much to this gang when in reality they were just outcasts looking for a quick buck in their quest to permanently escape reality.

Yeah, Bill was in shock after he saw Steve's body in the car. Everything after that for him was a blur, I imagine.

Yes, that room was turned into the nursery and that very day, painters had been in, so the fumes would have been high (most paints then were lead-based) so with the heat, no one would have slept there.

We do have those details of Sharon's final moments as far as Sadie's and Tex's memories go, as they were so high on Speed, and were retold without laying direct blame on who stabbed her.

It's reasonable to assume Tex's bayonet did the damage but it's my gut feeling, Katie, Sadie and Tex took turns in the stabbing, Tex knowing that Charlie wanted everyone to have blood on their hands. Sharon was pinned down on the couch and did thrash left and right to avoid the baby from being stabbed, but the multiple chest wounds were fatal, and eventually the kids got up off the couch, Katie most likely standing behind, and as Sadie & Tex stood, Sharon rolled onto the rug, remaining in the exact position she was found.

Tex describes said in his book; Sadie describes said in the Grand Jury.

They were never appalled. They faked at bring so but all three were diagnosed with ASPD - Anti-Social Personality Disorder, layman's term - pyschopathy.They told what they had to but neither pointed direct fingers at themselves for Sharon's final blow. They were wanting to get out of prison and if you're the one who made the fatal blow on the most celebrated person in this case, you know you won't be freed.

Remember, all of this occurred very fast. In and out most likely less than a half hour. The time Sadie was alone with Sharon most likely was just minutes - one woman high as a kite, the other in severe shock. Not a lot beyond what we know now would have been said.

And even the front door had a huge obstacle...the two massive blue trunks delivered that day from London, of which one was tilted in Voytek's escape or Sadie's or Tex's attempt to run after him.

The other door, as I mention in the blueprint above, looks like it may have been difficult to access because of the TV, and it may have been on lock anyways. Yes, there was little land in the back but there was enough to walk the length of the house if needed, as the air conditioner and pool motor were back there, and Chapman entered the kitchen from its back door every morning.

Some things, I imagine, are just meant to be, as in Steven. But if Jay hadn't thought this was a practical joke, he and Sharon did have a chance. Gibby, Voytek, no chance at all.
H.K. said…
Thanks, always, for you thoughts and comments~
Anonymous said…
Great guestion, I've always wonder that myself, why didn't they run. Also on the second night when the manson gang went hunting again they stopped at a house but Charlie said no, because they had pictures of kids, so I was always wondering if manson was there at the Tate, he would of said no to that. Does anybody know why Roman doesn't give a statement at the parole hearing. Obvious he can't physically but a written one. Just seemed odd
B.J. Thompson said…
Hey, Anon, nice to hear from you...

There's a simple reason why Charlie made decisions, good or bad, and it always had to do with how cornered he felt at the time.

Tate would have happened no matter who was at Cielo simply because Charlie was enraged Bobby and his two favourite girls were in jail. He needed money to bail them out. Simple as that. Any other reason proferred is a load of crap.

On the second night, I don't think Charlie's heart was in it, other than to hone his Family killing machine in the kids. So every time he came across an unknown house/church, he made excuses. He remembered the LaBianca locale from the party house he previously had attended. Again, that was an upper class area and he was fine with doing damage to well-healed people, as long as blood didnt directly land on his hands.

My layman's guess on the Roman parole issue is that a wanted felon's word would not be admissable into such a hearing. But letters are always submitted into the Board prior every hearing and Roman may have, at one time, submitted said, especially prior his own charge of child rape.
Anonymous said…
No question Cielo dr would of happen no matter who was there, my"No" was to killing Sharon because she was pregnant. I say that because manson said no, supposedly, to a house with picture of kids n it. What ever happen to Roman after the murders did he go back to the house to live and what happen to Sharon stuff. Also, has the Folgers ever been to the parole hearing. I know parent sister did and Jay nephew did.
Anonymous said…

I read that Paul went to Tex Watson parole hearing and described how he had to wash up Sharon blood. is that on video??. My God is that true. So horrible, u can't help but get watery eyes. How did he not come across the table and kill that trash. I would of no doubt!!After all the research I've down, I've noticed, except under rare circumstances, that it's reported there were 4 murders at the Tate resident. Seems to me they are forgetting Paul Richard Polanski, even today. Just my observation.I saw that leo and rosemary daughter advocated for Tex release back in the early 90's. That blew my mind, thank God Doris Tate. My question to u is does she still do that or has she given up or change her mind and now wants him in prison.maybe you know this maybe you don't, did the murders parents ever which out to the victims parents. I think if my kid did that I'd try and reach out to the other parents, to offer my sadness. That wrong? Your thoughts?
B.J. Thompson said…
Hi again, Anon...

Kids or no kids, men, women, babies...Charlie was, and still is, a severe paranoid schizophrenic, so his perveived enemy IS his enemy. No, knowing Sharon was pregnant, at that moment Charlie felt, she's dead if it helps him break free.

Roman arrived back on the 16th, if I remember, which is when that LIFE magazine shot of him sitting in front of the PIG blood-written front door took place. I believe he stayed at the Beverly Hills hotel. To my knowledge, Roman never lived at Cielo again. Sharon's father cleaned up the house and it was returned to its original owner. I believe all of Sharon's belongings initially returned to her parent's house, minus what Roman retrieved which I believe were some riskee films he took of Sharon that the LAPD took into evidence and quietly returned to Roman.

As per the Folgers, I do not believe they have ever attended.The LaBianca family has as well.
B.J. Thompson said…
Yes, Paul Tate cleaned up the crime scene on his own, and no, no video.

Attacking the killers doesn't raise the victims, it raises the killers. The Tates knew that.

There were 5 murders at Tate, 6 if you count Paul Richard, but in '69, fetus deaths were not given a count of murder. Thankfully, that has changed.

The LaBianca daughter was/is a born again Christian and I believe the family felt she lost her mind after her parents deaths. As far as I know, she no longer publicly espouses Tex's release. She has faded into the background since then.

To my knowledge, the parents on both sides did not reach out. You must remember that 45ish years ago, such efforts were frowned upon by psychiatrists and law enforcement alike. This reaching out policy is very new to North American society.

If you weren't born back then, you may not realize the trauma those murders had on society. Panic and rage were at the surface, and remained so for years. Healing, reconciliation were not even dreamed of back then; moreso, a need to collar, convict, sentence and forget as best as could be done. The overturning of the Death Penalty in '72 changed that perspective, and the victim's families have had to endure decades worth of hearings just to keep these convicted death penalty killers behind bars. Too much killer family shame; too much victim family outrage for there to ever be a meeting of the minds.

I can sympathize with their times, Anon...most affected were just fighting to survive the damaging ripples of those two nights.
Anonymous said…
This is the saddest story of murder I have ever heard. I was born just after these murders so I didn't experience the trauma from these murders. Actually I haven't really paid attention. I knew of but not the specifics. Until most recently I came across a book that had Sharon Tate picture on and I thought it was a model of today. I was quickly educate about her and who and her demise. She certainly had timeless beauty. So I went and gain more knowledge and let me say that once you start to understand everything about this, you can not put it down. One thing leads to another. Your heart just bleeds for Doris, Patti, Jay's family, parents family( side not, u talk what if, what if Steven gunned it and went through the fence or back up once he saw the gun, beeping his horn!)
B.J. Thompson said…
Yes, I started this article with the What If because we all go there from time to time...but I only discussed possibilities after the invasion began.

Your suggestion for Steve Parent is one that an older, all-knowing Steve would have made, most likely modern day and not in 1969. Society is far more mentally prepared today. In the '60s, such crimes just didn't exist, that is why these murderers stirred so much panic in North America.

And no one knows what we would do when facing the wrong end of a gun, at night, blinded by the dark, and it was dark in those Canyons at night.

Steve did exactly what a shocked teen would. He asked who Tex was and begged not to be shot. His death came within seconds, not minutes, so there was no time to assess and react.
Anonymous said…
The almighty sends an angel and we killed it.
Anonymous said…
Does anybody know why Roman gave up Sharon's estate, which seems to easily. Not saying it's bad or good, just seem odd. Was he to depressed, certainly understandable. Did Sharon's family request her estate.
B.J. Thompson said…
Hi, Anon...

I dont have the details but I assume Sharon had a Will, and she most likely had her parents as beneficiaries. She knew Roman was financially sound. Roman most likely agree because the Tates were an army family, not wealthy by any means.
Anonymous said…
She had no will this I know for sure I could forward you some docs, one is Paul filing the paper work in Cali for head of Sharon's estate and roman sending Paul a official letter telling him he wants no part of her estate. Sorry, I thought everyone knew this. I didn't know why he gave it up so easily or maybe he didn't.
B.J. Thompson said…
I've not researched the victimology much, just the crimes, but there again, this doesn't surprise me. Roman didnt need her money. They were renting the house on consideration to buy...why not have what she had go to her parents? I see no big mystery here.
Anonymous said…
Yep me either, not implying there was just didn't know if her parents requested. Having her parents executor of the will not a bad idea, however it seem kinda weird on the surface. Usually it's the spouse who gets late spouse estste
Anonymous said…
Do u believe manson returned to ceilo Dr after murders. It's hard to tell what's frue and what's bullshit. I believe why would he go back which must be fill of police by now, from someone who called in the disturbance. ?
B.J. Thompson said…
If she didn't have a Will, it went to probate, I assume, and maybe Roman pronably said to the Tates, Here you go. I think everyone was too traumatized to care, and her financial portfolio wasn't huge. I know Roman and the Tates were close. They probably just figured it all out together...
B.J. Thompson said…
Thr issue of whether Manson returned to Cielo that night- read my post on that here, link below:
Anonymous said…
The real heartbreak of this story is " what happens when you are getting everything you want out of life, what happens when all your dreams are coming true, then these crazy people come and take it from you. That is what happens to Sharon Tate and she never saw it coming. That is so sad!!
Anonymous said…
Is it just me, please tell me, or has anybody else taken the time to really understood what happened those nights, and all the stuff that happened and beyond, stop reading and pick your head up and say " did this really happened" my God is so sad. I'm saying it. It's so hard to rap your head around this. It makes no sense.
B.J. Thompson said…
Hi Anon,

To get the Big Picture view of these crimes, that era and The Manson Family, you should begin with reading Vincent Bugliosi's book, Helter Skelter, as it's written from an investigative standpoint, Vincent being one of two D.A.'s who prosecuted the criminals. Your perspective will be better widened by that iconic non-fiction book.
H.K. said…
Hi Anon,
Please forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but if I recall correctly, Roman gave Sharon's red Ferrari to her Dad, and the Silver Dawn Rolls Royce to Sandy Tennant; Bill Tennant's wife at the time. Bill Tennant was Roman's agent, and he first identified the bodies at Cielo, for the police.
Rudi Altobelli was the Owner of Cielo Drive. He sued the estate of Sharon Tate for the damages incurred to the property the night of the murders. He was also angry that Voytek and Gibby were living there, and were not named on the Lease as tenants.
You are correct; Sharon died with no will.
H.K. said…
And yes, as Ms. Burb said, the impact of these murders was enormous. I have read that Doris Tate could not escape her deep depression for 12 years. Only the first round of paroles helped her move forward. Many accounts have revealed that she was extremely close to Sharon.
I always think about Paul Tate. Here he was, a man with three daughters; then his own name-sake, a baby boy, (in addition to his beloved first-born daughter), are violently taken from him and his family. So tragic. For everyone.
Anonymous said…
The word "context" is important to think about. A 1969 home invasion is much different then how the context of todays news is regarding this kind of crime. It is my opinion that it does not matter what happened to the victims, they died, and the focus of their loss or that of their families is never talked about. The ordeal destroyed lives and still affects all members of the familiesThey are all sociopathic and have never personally apologized to the victims families, except in front of cameras and parole hearings.behavior. The victims did cooperate, because it was unimaginable.Tex Watson, he is truly a mentally disturbed person. There are two theories, Linda Casabian mentioned the house, not knowing that Terry Melcher moved, or Charlie did order them there because of how he was treated in March of 1969 when he was thrown of the property for trespassing and saw the entire situation as the establishment, he did not know the new residents, how could he.
Anonymous said…
And there was no drug connections to Voy Tech and the Manson family. The alleged phone call came from the ranch to cielo, not the other way around, that could be to see if people are home as the plan was in motion. As for the blood issues and theories, its all bS, look at the living room, Sharon, was a kind and gentle soul, and beautiful, in and out, when the women came upon her they were filled with rage and jealousy, and it escalated their justification. Helter Skelter was a fictional children's nightmarish book the profited many by exploiting the victims as well as the killers. There is a new documentary, it was a combination of many things and there was no connection to the victims and the killers at cielo, except that Charlie visited the property in March of 1969 while Sharon was still there and was angry of being asked to leave, we don't know, and we never will, what I suggest where some of this energy should go is support Debra Tate and the families and the people she represents, which includes Ms. Folger;s family. Sign some petitions, write to our governor in California. It has gotten so liberal, and I am find myself in the middle, but it is a matter of time before Leslie Van Houten is released, I don't want her as my next door neighbor, Just something to think about as you read this.
Anonymous said…
I do feel that it was the killers idea, mainly Linda Kasabian who put the idea to go to Cielo that night and not Manson, even though he is one mean sociopathic man, but was just mentally ill, not as vicious as Tex Watson. So Linda, Tex, Sadie and Pat, did not know Terry Melcher the very quiet Candice Bergan. And shame on you Evangelicals who advocate for Tex's release, he can be forgiven but must pay the price in this life until he faces God, and feel in my heart, he will want to remain here as long as possible to avoid what he will face for his crimes against humanity. I am not an advocate of the death penalty, or an advocate against it either, it is for families of violent crimes to make those decisions for what is right for them, but remaining behind bars, away from the public, unable to make millions as a celebrity is not punishment. Its crazy, if you are a danger to society, and commit violence towards other human beings, you should spend your life in prison, treated humanly, but locked up. Tex Watson said in an interview that his living amends was to live a sober life as his apology to Doris Tate, /Sharon's mom, why would she care if he is sober or not, even though she passed, where was the real apology behind the scenes? And her daughters death took her life too, and so many family members. These were not just Hollywood celebrities, these were human beings. I don't think they are different people or rehabilitated in their hearts. Help out and sign the no parole for manson and secure information for our California governor and chime in.... it is time well spent, the past can't be changed, and the sadness of Sharon's death is the worst of any we know of, but you can help Sharon by helping her family keep these people behind bars, and focusing on the now and the future and helping the victims families. Please, it makes a difference. Leslie Van Houten recommended parole hearing was denied by our governor this month. And she will be up in a year because in California, if you get a parole board hearing recommendation, your hearings are once a year, can you imagine how horrible this is for the families that still live with this nightmare, the Labianca, the Tate family and the Folger family, put yourself in their position, then your heart will really break. And this legend of Charles Manson is turning into some very scary thing that fantasy and fear are taking young people into something that did not or does not exist. Bugluosi made the entire theory up for fame and fortune for which he received, for his selfish ambitions of lies....but what negative mark did he leave on our society for all this fear and sadness all these years:??? shame on Brad Pitt and Quentin Terintino got exploiting this story again as the sake of the vicims and their families for profit, shame on you.
B.J. Thompson said…
Hi, Anonymous, thank you for your recent comment.

First, Manson DID order the killings. There is ample evidence for said, and has been for decades. The "kids" would have had NO reason to kill that night. It was Manson who needed money to spring Bobby and the girls from jail. No, I'm afraid you need to do more reading to see the evidence behind the impetus for the Tate kill night. Also, it was always Manson, not the kids, who orchestrated the "creepy crawl" nights. They were practice Manson insisted upon so if there ever was a need to home invade for any reason, he knew they would be psychologically ready.

Second, Tex knew Terry Melcher, and Tex had been up to Cielo a couple of time visiting a tangential friend who at that time lived in the Guest House. It was the father of a girl who eventually joined the Family. Both Manson and Tex had been up to Cielo and that's the very reason Cielo was picked. Manson knew there was money up there and he knew Tex knew the lay-out.

Third, Bugliosi did NOT "make up" the Helter Skelter motive. It was culled from interviews conducted with various Family members, and was the over-riding excuse Manson used to get the kids on-board. He knew he needed something to gel them into action.

Four, thank you, Anon, for informing me about the One Year Rule as per a California Parole Board authorizing release. I am with you whole-heartedly that this rule is torture for Debra and the LaBianca family. It should Not be allowed. I can only pray Jerry Brown will keep vetoing.

I think you should consider doing a bit more research into the crimes so you have a clearer grasp of the motive and means behind them, Anon. You heart is generally in the right place but you're missing facts.

The trials unfolded precisely how they should have, thanks completely to Aaron Stovitz and Vincent Bugliosi, and their process has been used in law school teaching lessons ever since.

I continue to hope for what ALL the killers originally received as sentences - that they die in prison. Nothing less will be acceptable.

Thank you again, Anon, for your comment.
Cordially, MsBurb

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